Curse

Prayash · Feb 27, 2010, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Your KD lasts 3 sec with stonefist.

I thought it was 2 secs, including Stonefist.

jesh · Feb 27, 2010, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Normal KDs are 2 seconds. The insignia adds 1 second with a max of 3 seconds, in other words, it won't work with backbreaker.

Terek Zelta · Feb 28, 2010, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knocking On Heavens Door

Terek Zelta on post #9, the last edit left you with 1, possibly 2 optional slots. Could you just bring Withering Aura on your own bar as i dont have a mm?

You could, and it's not too bad actually. 1 second cast time isn't going to kill you, but it's way better on a hero. In fact, Olias maintains it on me throughout the battle without me having to micro it at all, and that surprised me.

The build is this:

Yeti Smash
Renewing Smash
Enraged Smash
Flail

That's it. Everything else is fair game.

Tonight, I used SY + Auspicious + Sunspear Rebirth + Enraging Charge. It worked beautifully, but I found that SY and Auspicious Blow just weren't needed, which is really kinda funny.

@Cthon: You're too caught up in semantics and math. It's perfectly possible to KD-lock enemies with this build. In fact, I did it to Murakai about an hour ago. No deaths, she only managed to get a single skill out (because of my darn human imperfections!) downed her in about 30 seconds on hard mode with two friends of mine and our heroes, and one of my friends was useless past his lead attack because he put the wrong skill in his dagger chain, while the other didn't even realize the battle ended.

My advice is to play the build before you judge it.

And about WE: I was thinking about that. Auspicious Blow does not solve all energy problems, but it does solve many. But I wouldn't use anything short of WE if I planned to use Asuran Scan with Crude Swing and Renewing Smash. Also, Auspicious Blow isn't always usable on demand, which does pose certain problems sometimes.

You make a viable Earth Shaker build with Whirlwind Attack, Crude Swing, Renewing Smash, Pulverizing Smash and Auspicious Blow in it, that can keep the party covered reasonably well with SY and we'll talk. Until then, that's too many attack skills.

You can use Earth Shaker with just Renewing, Auspicious and Crude Swing, but Enraged Smash works better. It doesn't require you to have FGJ or Mark of Fury or Dark Fury, a mob of 4, or any of that. That's the whole point. You're not dependent on your team for adrenaline management, only a small enchantment that lasts 19 seconds and that the AI uses very well. Withering Aura is a complete non-issue.

For me, Earth Shaker has been replaced. It may not be that way for you.

Edit: Had to fix some things. Mentally slower tonight. Sorry.

Arkantos · Feb 28, 2010, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Earth shaker + renewing smash > WE + power attack tbh, if you can manage your energy. AoE knockdown and insane single target damage is pretty rapeface.

Chthon · Feb 28, 2010, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Earth shaker + renewing smash > WE + power attack tbh, if you can manage your energy. AoE knockdown and insane single target damage is pretty rapeface.

At this point, the argument seems to be Earthshaker vs. Yeti Smash powered by Enraged Smash.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

@Cthon: You're too caught up in semantics and math. It's perfectly possible to KD-lock enemies with this build. In fact, I did it to Murakai about an hour ago.

You exaggerate. No amount of commentary about how good you think your own build is will convince me that you can maintain a knocklock when your knockdown is 3sec and the cycle time on your adrenaline engine is >6sec.

Terek Zelta · Feb 28, 2010, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Yeti Smash -> Renewing Smash x3/4 -> Enraged Smash -> Yeti Smash is a knocklock. You're right, there is downtime, but it's so small that most mobs don't have enough time to get off a skill or attack, so I consider that a knocklock.

So let me put this in a way that's easier to understand.

Infinite adrenaline management? Yes!

Can you knock stuff down a lot? Yes!

Can you knock stuff down a whole lot? Yes!

Can you do lots of damage? Yes!

Is it good bar compression? Yes!

Did it spank Murakai? Like a naughty dominatrix!

Prayash · Feb 28, 2010, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

Yeti Smash -> Renewing Smash x3/4 -> Enraged Smash -> Yeti Smash is a knocklock.

Most of the time, when something recovers after a knockdown, it uses a skill, and between your KDs, there is at least 2 seconds down time due to the activation time of E Smash and another 1 second for Yeti Smash.

Terek Zelta · Feb 28, 2010, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prayash

Most of the time, when something recovers after a knockdown, it uses a skill, and between your KDs, there is at least 2 seconds down time due to the activation time of E Smash and another 1 second for Yeti Smash.

If you want to get technical, Flail reduces the activation of both significantly, and Yeti Smash's 1 second activation is exactly why it can be done.

You're actually wrong on he first bit too. Either that, or the KD is faster than I think, because it doesn't happen to me.

See, you're theorycrafting. Someone here once said: "Theorycraft =/= pro." Don't try too hard, because you get too caught up in egotistical banter, and then I just stop replying.

Some of you seem to think I did this because I wanted to come up with the next greatest thing. I didn't. This was something I came up with in about four seconds after I saw Enraged Smash in my skill list. I said, "Hey, this is fun."

Use Earth Shaker. Use FGJ. I don't care. It works, and it's sustainable, and that's the beauty of it to me.

Edit: Nope, you're right. They do use skills. I take that back and I apologize! Testing in endgame Factions. In hard mode, some mobs do get a skill in, or I end up interrupting them.

So if you're not happy that I said "knocklock," let's just say, "knocks stuff down a lot" or "gets a lot of KDs."

It doesn't change the fact that I can get out more KDs with this than I can with Earth Shaker without FGJ, which was my original point. 20 seconds in HM isn't a lot of time when we consider the 45 second recharge, so I found a useful alternative. Not only that, but even with FGJ, Earth Shaker requires the person be surrounded by 2 or more enemies, which isn't always doable.

Chthon · Feb 28, 2010, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

If you want to get technical, Flail reduces the activation of both significantly, and Yeti Smash's 1 second activation is exactly why it can be done.

Why do you not get this? Enraged's recharge is 5. It's activation is normal, which means 1.1725sec under 33%IAS. Add them together and the total cycle time is 6.1725 sec. So monsters spend 3 seconds down and 3.1725 seconds up. It is simply not possible to go any faster than that. It is not that hard to understand. And it is not "overly technical" or "semantic" or "mere theorycraft." It is a very simple, very irrefutable fact derived with very simple, elementary-school-level arithmetic.

The Mad Addict · Feb 28, 2010, 04:01 AM // 04:01

How do you have enough energy to spam enraged smash along with all these other skills o.o?

Terek Zelta · Feb 28, 2010, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Why do you not get this? Enraged's recharge is 5. It's activation is normal, which means 1.1725sec under 33%IAS. Add them together and the total cycle time is 6.1725 sec. So monsters spend 3 seconds down and 3.1725 seconds up. It is simply not possible to go any faster than that. It is not that hard to understand. And it is not "overly technical" or "semantic" or "mere theorycraft." It is a very simple, very irrefutable fact derived with very simple, elementary-school-level arithmetic.

You're still missing the point. I don't know what you're trying to prove here, but it's entirely different from what I've already proven. The only advice I can give you is read my posts in their entirety rather than take something out of context and try so hard to pick it apart.

I can't make it any clearer than I already have.

Without FGJ, with just Earth Shaker, things are on their feet a lot longer than three seconds in my experience.

And I'd like to add too that Enraged Smash's KD is actually pretty useful in HM for single targets. I think that's probably part of where I got the knocklocking thing from at first.

And yes, since this works in practice, it is senseless theorycraft.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Mad Addict

How do you have enough energy to spam enraged smash along with all these other skills o.o?

Zealous mod and the 3 energy gain from Renewing Smash. You can't go indefinitely, which is why I brought Auspicious Blow to CoF tonight, but it was funny, because fights just didn't last long enough for energy to be a problem, so Auspicious Blow never got used.

draxynnic · Feb 28, 2010, 05:29 AM // 05:29

From my experience...

Terek described it as a hybrid between Earthshaker and Dragon Slash earlier. That's probably a good analysis: It's not as good at keeping big groups knocked down as Earthshaker is, nor is it as good at taking down a single target as Dragon Slash/Brawling Headbutt builds. However, it is better at taking on groups than the Dragon Slash warrior (and less vulnerable to being disrupted), and it continues to be effective even against single targets where Earthshaker's strength drops out a bit.

Another thing worthy of note is that while this build doesn't rely as much on FGJ as others, with FGJ running, dropping three Renewing Smashes on a target before they get up does most of the work in recharging Yeti Smash. On the other hand, however, I imagine the same would be true of Earthshaker.

Terek Zelta · Feb 28, 2010, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Right!

Under FGJ, I find Earth Shaker to be generally superior at keeping a group on its back, but after FGJ is finished, I find it downright unwieldy. So to me, Earth Shaker is much less versatile than this setup.

And also, it is possible to knock-lock a group of enemies with this build. I just did it. And the reason I kept saying it earlier is because in practice, sometimes I find Yeti Smash fully charged when I engage a new group of enemies, so I don't need to start with Enraged Smash. I use Yeti Smash -> Renewing Smash x2 -> Enraged Smash -> Yeti Smash and then they're immediately back on the ground, because I used Enraged Smash while they were on the ground and not after they got up. Enemies typically don't survive beyond that point.

You don't have to start any fight with Enraged Smash, even. You can just use Enraging Charge with FGJ, which is fine in this case because the build doesn't need it.

There are a lot of variables that come into play, even how you play the build is important. Sometimes the group is down right as they get up, sometimes the group is up for 4-5 seconds or more before they're back down again. It depends.

The thing is, this was just a fun idea I posted, I wasn't expecting it to be a real build people would use, but I'm glad I'm getting some good feedback on it.

Prayash · Feb 28, 2010, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

Right!

Under FGJ, I find Earth Shaker to be generally superior at keeping a group on its back, but after FGJ is finished, I find it downright unwieldy. So to me, Earth Shaker is much less versatile than this setup.

And also, it is possible to knock-lock a group of enemies with this build. I just did it. And the reason I kept saying it earlier is because in practice, sometimes I find Yeti Smash fully charged when I engage a new group of enemies, so I don't need to start with Enraged Smash. I use Yeti Smash -> Renewing Smash x2 -> Enraged Smash -> Yeti Smash and then they're immediately back on the ground, because I used Enraged Smash while they were on the ground and not after they got up. Enemies typically don't survive beyond that point.

You don't have to start any fight with Enraged Smash, even. You can just use Enraging Charge with FGJ, which is fine in this case because the build doesn't need it.

There are a lot of variables that come into play, even how you play the build is important. Sometimes the group is down right as they get up, sometimes the group is up for 4-5 seconds or more before they're back down again. It depends.

The thing is, this was just a fun idea I posted, I wasn't expecting it to be a real build people would use, but I'm glad I'm getting some good feedback on it.

I do think this build is more reliable than Earth Shaker due to it's unreliability on FGJ. I just tested this and, I Enraging Charged in, and hit E Smash, giving me an automatic 7 adr. which charges Yeti Smash, with Flail, I could get up to 4 Renewing Smashes which resulted in a nasty spike with SoH and Splinter Wep. The only thing to note is the 5 sec recharge for E Smash, which isn't too bad.

Terek Zelta · Feb 28, 2010, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Wow.

Thanks.

If anyone wants to post it on PVX or something, feel free. Going to bed now.

Prayash · Feb 28, 2010, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Also, if you don't want to use Zealous mod on your hammer, you can charge in, use E Smash, Auspicious Blow --returning you back the 5 Energy you just used, then start the Yeti Smash chain. In average, I was doing 130-150 damage every second on the Master of Damage.
I was running:
Enraged Smash
Auspicious Blow
Yeti Smash
Renewing Smash
Optional [any suggestions?]
Flail
Enraging Charge
"Save Yourselves!"

draxynnic · Feb 28, 2010, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Depending on whether you expect to face more groups or more individuals, I'd be inclined to go with Crude Blow or Brawling Headbutt respectively. Crude Blow gives you the option to deal area damage if in a large mob (where it also serves as an additional adrenaline source), while Brawling Headbutt will give you a means of knocking down single targets that doesn't drain all your adrenaline.

Really, though, since your base build only has one PvE skill, you've got the freedom to bring pretty much anything. If nothing else, you can bring an Asura summon...or (shock, horror) a res.

Terek Zelta · Feb 28, 2010, 10:16 AM // 10:16

Yeah.

Those are all good ideas. I'm going to test Crude Swing later. That's why I like this build so much: bar compression!

Other skills maybe...

For Great Justice
Whirlwind Attack
Demonic Flesh (This might be better on your hero - pretty cool)
Mending Touch
To The Limit (with 8 Tactics)
Fear Me! (Hammer crits!)
Belly Smash
Overbearing Smash (perfect for even more Murakai destruction)
Some kind of deep wound
Thrill of Victory
None Shall Pass (Second AoE KD, but highly conditional)
Pain Inverter (maybe?)
A summon
A paragon shout of your choosing
Ebon Battle Standard of Honor

So many skills. So many ways to abuse Enraged/Auspicious.

Oh, and thanks whomever put it on PVX.